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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Apr 26, 2007 13:11:25 GMT -4
Oy. Let's not forget Vincent Belmont in "Hearts in Eclipse"... Yes, well, that's hardly canon. (Or is it cannon? I can never remember, but I'm sure I will if somebody just tells me. I should know - it's a crucial word to a literature student, but anyway - ) No, it's not. I'm sure you already know that, judging by the rather sardonic response. Since we're on the subject of FANFICTION, I thought that was fair game. I'll go over and lurk in the corner dustbin with the rest of the undesirables.
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Post by EGBFan on Apr 26, 2007 13:17:33 GMT -4
My point is, I wasn't forgetting anything. Fritz was listing evidence in canon that the characters are not gay. I was continuing it - nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 27, 2007 14:09:37 GMT -4
You can't just change someone's essential nature just because. In many ways, someone's essential nature can change. Sexuality and sexual preference is not necessarily set in stone. A friend of mine dated women for years before he came out. Now, he's in a very happy relationship with a guy and has been with him for many years. My brother-in-law dated a woman when he was in college who is now a lesbian. There are many men and women who marry people of the opposite sex and have children with them, and are homosexual. Some people experiment, especially when they are young and unsure of what sexual orientation they are, or are uncomfortable with their own sexuality. If it happens in real life, it can happen in fiction. I'm not arguing this is the case with GB, but I'm just saying that it's not totally unheard of for these things to happen to people. More often then not it's a lazy excuse for being able to write a personal perversion or just want to write some sex (not that all slash authors do this... but it's not hard to imagine). Not all slash is sexually explicit. Most slash authors are women, so I really don't think that they are getting any personal kicks from writing about two men falling in love with and finding comfort with each other. How can female authors gain personal gratification from that? Male authors I might understand, but female authors? I don't get it.
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Post by Fritz on Apr 27, 2007 15:48:43 GMT -4
My understanding is that the term "slash" originates, just like "Mary Sue", with Star Trek fan fic. The entire genre of stories where Kirk and Spock started having a gay relationship became know as "Kirk/Spock" stories, so thus the slash "/" became a notation for any of those...uncanonical relationships. (Kirk/Spock would have to be a precursor to the Venkman/Egon stories in many ways. I mean, c'mon, if there's anyone out there who's had more girlfriends that Peter Venkman it's James T. Kirk )
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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Apr 27, 2007 17:00:25 GMT -4
You can't just change someone's essential nature just because. In many ways, someone's essential nature can change. Sexuality and sexual preference is not necessarily set in stone. A friend of mine dated women for years before he came out. Now, he's in a very happy relationship with a guy and has been with him for many years. My brother-in-law dated a woman when he was in college who is now a lesbian. There are many men and women who marry people of the opposite sex and have children with them, and are homosexual. Some people experiment, especially when they are young and unsure of what sexual orientation they are, or are uncomfortable with their own sexuality. If it happens in real life, it can happen in fiction. I'm not arguing this is the case with GB, but I'm just saying that it's not totally unheard of for these things to happen to people. I find it funny that this is considered "bad" when it happens in reverse. Link one. I've never heard of one that wasn't.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 27, 2007 19:47:25 GMT -4
I find it funny that this is considered "bad" when it happens in reverse. Sorry, you've totally lost me. When what happens in reverse? When gay people go straight? Link one. I've never heard of one that wasn't. I'm warning you well in advance that if you don't like slash, then you aren't going to like any of these, but links are here, here and here. None of them are sexually explicit. I could find more if you want, but I thought three would be enough to demonstrate.
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BlackMaria
Doberman
Jersey Devil
Sharpening the Fence Posts
Posts: 126
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Post by BlackMaria on Apr 27, 2007 20:10:45 GMT -4
I find it funny that this is considered "bad" when it happens in reverse. Sorry, you've totally lost me. When what happens in reverse? When gay people go straight? Link one. I've never heard of one that wasn't. I'm warning you well in advance that if you don't like slash, then you aren't going to like any of these, but links are here, here and here. None of them are sexually explicit. I could find more if you want, but I thought three would be enough to demonstrate. What is it 'bout the pink shirt that drives 'em wild? Notice most writers of the above stories are women. I myself don't prefer guy on guy action. One man is enough.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 27, 2007 20:50:05 GMT -4
What is it 'bout the pink shirt that drives 'em wild? Notice most writers of the above stories are women. I myself don't prefer guy on guy action. One man is enough. Erm... Maybe you missed it, but I did actually give a warning that if you don't like slash then you aren't going to like any of the stories I linked. However, what's dirty about those stories? I'm just curious, because I don't see any explicit sex in there at all. I'll admit, the last link is quite syrupy, but apart from that I just don't see anything too explicit in them.
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Post by Fritz on Apr 27, 2007 21:14:22 GMT -4
My house must have had the most malfuntioning television in the world back in the '80's. Egon's shirt looked orange on ours, just like Venkman's flight suit collar looked blue
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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Apr 28, 2007 10:09:41 GMT -4
I find it funny that this is considered "bad" when it happens in reverse. Sorry, you've totally lost me. When what happens in reverse? When gay people go straight? Yes. No, that will be sufficient. I've learned something new. I thought slash was slash by (non)VIRTUE of the fact that they are sexually explicit...and that sexually explicit stuff is, what, 98% of the slash fiction? I stand corrected. Well, not so much "corrected," as "enlightened." After all, I didn't contradict you, I merely stated that I never saw one that wasn't. You're right. I hated them, but they did serve as a good example.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 28, 2007 11:58:35 GMT -4
Sorry, you've totally lost me. When what happens in reverse? When gay people go straight? Yes. I think the gay community probably find it strange that someone would go through the coming out process and everything that entails, only to go back to being straight afterwards. I think it might be regarded as bad by some in the gay community, because it could give the impression that some gay people are just pretending, and maybe that they can 'turn back' if they felt like it, which is not the case. It's probably much the same reason that some gay people don't like bisexuals, because they don't feel that homosexuality can be switched on and off. I don't know, I don't really think I'm qualified to speak on behalf of the gay community - I'm straight, and I've only got two gay friends (plus their partners) so I wouldn't exactly call myself an expert on the matter. I've learned something new. I thought slash was slash by (non)VIRTUE of the fact that they are sexually explicit...and that sexually explicit stuff is, what, 98% of the slash fiction? It's quite true to say that there is a lot of sexually explicit slash around. I've read a few and they are not to my personal taste at all. Like BlackMaria, I'm not really interested in reading anything with two men going at it. It puzzles me as to why any women would be.
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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Apr 28, 2007 12:10:40 GMT -4
Well, I have a few gay friends who are aware of my views on their lifestyle, and we're still friends anyways. (Which says alot about their character) We just never bring it up to each other.
Still, I'm no expert, either...I only know what I know, and I tend to speak my mind, and make sure I can back up my opinions when a debate pops up.
I've been called many things in my life for my views, because America's mainstream hates people like me. If anything, however, I'm honest, and I'm not going to sugar-coat anything, and I HATE "Political correctness." I have the same view as Japan on that...it's a form of deception, and therefore dishonorable.
I'll hand it to you, Silent Seraphim, I'm impressed that you haven't jumped down my throat like many people tend to do. I thank you for that.
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Post by EGBFan on Apr 28, 2007 13:03:20 GMT -4
Well, I only read the short one. No one wants to listen to why - so I'll just cut to the chase and say it was well written. I'd like it, if she'd changed the names and said it was about original characters. Like I said, not my cup of tea either. I think the gay community probably find it strange that someone would go through the coming out process and everything that entails, only to go back to being straight afterwards. I think it might be regarded as bad by some in the gay community, because it could give the impression that some gay people are just pretending, and maybe that they can 'turn back' if they felt like it, which is not the case. It's probably much the same reason that some gay people don't like bisexuals, because they don't feel that homosexuality can be switched on and off. I can't speak for the gay community either. I work with a gay guy and have a lesbian stepsister (and a straight stepbrother who used to be a gay woman) I never see - I'm no expert either. But that sounds about right to me. What am I basing that on? Trisha (kind of like The Jerry Springer Show only not as aggressive and with less far-fetched situations). I must have been bored on the occasion I was watching it, and a man was telling his wife of twenty-odd years that he was gay. When Trisha went into the audience with her microphone, a homosexual man stood up and said something along the lines of: If you're gay you've always been gay, and if you ever really loved your wife you're not gay now. As though it's the same for everyone - I'm quite sure it isn't. As to bisexuality, I think that quotation I cited really explains the way at least some bisexual people think: "I love the person, not the body." I'm not bisexual either, but that makes a lot of sense to me. Oscar Wilde also has something to say about this: "Men and women are neither homosexual nor heterosexual. They are merely sexual." What's he saying? Everyone's bi? Well, a lot of people wouldn't agree, but anyway - To get back to the only story out of the three that I read: it's more about love than sex. If someone did want kicks from reading about two men together, that's not the place to find them. She's a romance writer.
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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Apr 29, 2007 10:08:43 GMT -4
Well, here's an honest question, as you ladies seem to know more about this than I do.
Silent Seraphim has proven to me that not all slash is sexual, and Fritz says the origins of slash are the "slash" notation of different pairings. I take that to mean that all non canonical couplings are slash fiction.
Here's my question: Why is it that nearly all slash I hear about is homosexual? Is there Heterosexual slash as well? Do I think all slash is homosexual because that's all that you really hear about?
Actually, I suppose that's three questions.
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Post by Kingpin on Apr 29, 2007 12:57:42 GMT -4
Here's my question: Why is it that nearly all slash I hear about is homosexual? Is there Heterosexual slash as well? Do I think all slash is homosexual because that's all that you really hear about? Actually, I suppose that's three questions. Could be because 'Slash' has become too greatly associated with the 'guy on guy' 'gal on gal' stuff whilst the rest gets put under 'Mary Sue' and 'Gary Stu'. When you really think about it, that's effectively saying all non-canon relationships are bad. That's an unfair statement as I've read some pretty good non-canon relationships... a lot of stuff Rosey's put together has been interesting to read and falls neither into the 'Sue/Stu'isms or 'Slash'. I wonder what term could be applied to non-canonical offspring? "Kindefake"? (Never in a million years would that be a serious suggestion. I apologise on my remarks about all Slash being for a 'perverted perversion', Silent... I admit like Belmont I hadn't seen any that didn't have sexual content. Although I think it'd be fair to consider that maybe writing a Slash fic is like the literary equivilant of going to a strip club... there are blokes who do get off on seeing two girls romp it out and I suspect (in a very limited capacity) that there are gals who like seeing two blokes romp it out... but obviously not as many slash authors are like this as I originally thought. I could speculate on how they'd get gratification... but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable doing it. I wonder what a psych major could make of this topic.
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