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Post by Kingpin on Dec 11, 2005 19:55:01 GMT -4
As long as you keep the character in check, and remember the rules, I don't think you guys will have any problems with Mary Sue and Gary Stu.
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Cliff
Extreme Ghostbuster
Currently trapped in the past with no way of getting home....
Posts: 28
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Post by Cliff on Dec 13, 2005 22:58:12 GMT -4
I gotta be honest here (again)...
I've been reading the "Chronicles of Gozer" over the last few days, and I've noticed a certain recurring theme....
...at times, Vincent Belmont seems to be getting dangerously close to becoming a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Know this: I am not knocking Vince at all. He's a great guy, and I dig his work, but....
...if you think about it --at length-- he gets to be very Mary-Sue-ish. Not to a certain extreme *cough*Egon/whomever*cough* but almost.
I'm not gonna list it here, but just...think about it. And Vince? If you read this, I'm sorry, man, but going over that one scene whre you punch out Bestler...yeah, that really struck a chord.
--Cliff
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Post by EGBFan on Dec 28, 2005 14:50:11 GMT -4
Ok, what really annoys me is this: when a writer forces an interest of his or her own on a character, regardless of whether that character has ever even mentioned said interest in whatever show. That makes no sense, does it. Well, let me explain with the prime example: taking a cartoon character, or characters, and writing him, her or them into a rock band.
Honestly? All right - I can think of no other examples. But the band thing has been done to characters in three cartoons I like: Danny Phantom, the Rugrats spinoff All Grown Up and - last but not least - EGB. Taking the EGB example (as all of us are at least vaguely familiar with it), a writer had Kylie and Eduardo fronting a rock band. Now that's just wrong. Neither of them has ever shown any particular interest in music, and they certainly don't play any instruments in the show. What's more, Kylie at least has other interests, which she seems just to have abandoned. This writer is a shipper, so everything seems above board, and yet she is imposing something of herself on both characters. Now I think that's a little Mary-Sue-ish.
In All Grown Up, Tommy Pickles (once the baby in the undersized blue t-shirt) wants nothing more in his future than to be a movie director. He's always making amateur movies in the cartoon - he's never picked up a guitar in his life. And then somebody writes a story (set seven-odd years after the cartoon, I should add), and suddenly: bam! - he's no longer interested in movies, but he's suddenly an exceptionally talented musician.
You see my point? Well, anyway, I'm not stopping there. Just in case you still think I'm talking rubbish, I'll use the example of Egon - I know how you all love your Egon. So, I'm a writer, and I've just got interested in poetry - and now I'm planning a story in which Egon abandons his lab and everything in it, and sets out to become a poet. He no longer cares about paranormal science, nor any other kind of science; instead he has a collection of poetry that he really wants to get published, and my story follows him all over the States trying to find a publisher.
Mary-Sue-ish? I think so. It's less subtle than writing yourself into the story - much more devious. I really feel that saying, "Forget Janine, have me" is very like saying, "Forget your interests, have mine - here's a guitar."
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CJ
Doberman
Doom Patrol...Yeah you heard right
Posts: 99
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Post by CJ on Dec 28, 2005 21:35:09 GMT -4
Well, and I use this as a joke, but don't forget Egon's used rock and roll before in the name of sceince XD
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Post by EGBFan on Dec 30, 2005 17:33:42 GMT -4
Ah yes, I remember. Still, it's no excuse for a Mary-Sue-esque the Ghostbusters start a band-type story. Egon's a poet now - understood?
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Post by Kingpin on Dec 30, 2005 21:27:08 GMT -4
It is a rather lame and devious way of trying to justify the melding of two characters who wouldn't normall jel... hrmm, reminds me of Billy from Power Rangers suddently developing an interest in Duran Duran.
I digress. Character manipulation is only slightly worse then Mary Sue/Gary Stu, sure, you're not introducing a new character... but you're messing with pre-established stuff.
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Post by ghostdiva on Dec 30, 2005 23:46:26 GMT -4
I would have to agree that I think Egon is a closet music enthusiast (sp?) Several eps show this such. There was one where Peter was trying to write a love song and Egon was insulting it, and another one where he insulted Peter's taste in music. You can also see it in "Play them Ragtime Boos", I think he was the only one that didn't admit to not knowing how to play the music. Egon Spengler-music junkie lol. ghostdiva
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Post by Fritz on Dec 31, 2005 10:13:49 GMT -4
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Post by EGBFan on Dec 31, 2005 11:50:53 GMT -4
Yuh-huh, well, that's kinda not the point. Ben seems to understand - makes a nice change. Ha ha ha - sorry, Ben. Yeah, anyway, I do think it's worse than a Mary-Sue. Thing is, if a new man or woman comes into your life, there's always a possibility that you might fancy him or her. Of course I'm not trying to justify Mary-Sues - I'm only saying. It seems less likely that, for example, an amateur filmmaker would suddenly be a guitar whiz and form a band. It's easier to form an attachment to a new person than a new passion - d'you see what I mean? Shall I shut up now? Ok, this an edit, like a minute later. I've remembered the RGB ep with the opera. You're gonna hate me - I was very disappointed with Egon in that ep. I don't think he came across very well at all. He assumed that just because he likes opera, everybody else must like it, even Peter. Well, I could have told him Peter wouldn't like opera. I'm sorry, it gets on my nerves; somebody does that to me, just occasionally: "It's fantastic - you'll love it. Of course it's a good play - it's based on Dickens. Who doesn't love Dickens?" GARGH! Yeah, ok - now who's digressing?
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Post by ghostdiva on Dec 31, 2005 17:32:47 GMT -4
I know what you meant EGB Fan I just felt like sharing my thoughts on that. But writers certainly need to avoid the dreaded out of character mode, which is what your talking about. I guess its a good thing I never wrote that fic where Catherine the junior GB grew up to be a pop singer... ghostdiva
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CJ
Doberman
Doom Patrol...Yeah you heard right
Posts: 99
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Post by CJ on Jan 1, 2006 21:39:02 GMT -4
I have that episode and Play Them Ragtime Boos side-by-side on video. Egon was more in character in Boos than in Opera (where he came off a little being the Douglas Dumbrille character from the Marx Brothers movie, though not that extreme).
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Post by Dr. Vincent Belmont on Jan 2, 2006 15:42:20 GMT -4
I gotta be honest here (again)... I've been reading the "Chronicles of Gozer" over the last few days, and I've noticed a certain recurring theme.... ...at times, Vincent Belmont seems to be getting dangerously close to becoming a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Know this: I am not knocking Vince at all. He's a great guy, and I dig his work, but.... ...if you think about it --at length-- he gets to be very Mary-Sue-ish. Not to a certain extreme *cough*Egon/whomever*cough* but almost. I'm not gonna list it here, but just...think about it. And Vince? If you read this, I'm sorry, man, but going over that one scene whre you punch out Bestler...yeah, that really struck a chord. --Cliff No, Cliff, I am quite aware of everyone's opinion of me, and yours comes to no suprise. I'm not sure how you percieved me striking Bestler to be a "Mary Sue" issue...or perhaps you think that the scene was there to "Make a point" about Vincent. I wrote that scene. Shock or not, the scene was meant to "stir up the pot," and make a point that "Vincent is human, too." The point was that it's closing in on the end of the world, and tension is high. Bestler stuck a needle in a wound that has been torturing Vincent for years... What, may I ask, would YOU have done? Just stood there and said: "Yeah, man...everything's cool?" I spoke to Bestler about that scene. It was purely to throw in some drama. Would you have been happier if Vincent ran off and cried...or perhaps cower like a whipped puppy? No, wait... ...I'm dead sure you would have been more pleased if there was a limit on how many times the name "Vincent" shows up in a specific work.
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Post by Kingpin on Jan 2, 2006 19:10:54 GMT -4
Cliff... you're gonna have to explain more as he doesn't seem in great danger of breaking any of the big rules... he's in love with a character from another ( computer game series) franchise, which isn't a huge problem... he isn't impossibly popular and doesn't save everyone's collective butts singlehandedly... hell, wouldn't someone who's more calm and collected be prone to a more explosive outburst?
Of course, characters like Vincent Belmont... Ben King Snr... Jeff Chrismer always have to be kept in check so they don't turn into Gary Stu... but punching a man? I've seen far worse signs.
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Cliff
Extreme Ghostbuster
Currently trapped in the past with no way of getting home....
Posts: 28
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Post by Cliff on Jan 3, 2006 23:02:08 GMT -4
Vince, Ben, I'd like to apologize.
Honestly, that was what had popped into my head when I had read the scene, and I attribute that to the very limited knowledge I have regarding most of Vincent's body of work.
One thing I have noticed from writer to writer is that whenever a writer is in charge of his/her own character, they tend to give them more...er, power than the other characters, such as one-liners and...
..y'know what? I'm just digging myself deeper in this, and it looks like there's no way back out.
So, I apologize, it was a spur of the moment thought, and it should not come up again in any civilized conversation, lest it be in some goofy reference to something.
I did not mean to offend anyone, and --God knows-- Vincent is one of the most talented writers in the GB genre, and I should have no room to slight or make fun of his work in the least.
Again, I am sorry.
--Cliff
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Post by Kingpin on Jan 4, 2006 7:51:50 GMT -4
One thing I have noticed from writer to writer is that whenever a writer is in charge of his/her own character, they tend to give them more...er, power than the other characters, such as one-liners and... That's a valid point, more then once I've been sensitive about whether Ben King Snr is actually outstepping his bounds... it's why I'm trying to space the stories where he's fairly centric to a decent length and give the others their own stories... such as the plan to do a story for Tom and his past. But yeah, it's an important point... try keep the original characters in check so none are upstaging the others original characters.
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