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Post by Fritz on Apr 15, 2005 12:11:46 GMT -4
Here it is...the King of all Topics That We Can't Talk About On Any Other GB Board... Even upon seeing the first movie, I admit I thought Harold Ramis and Annie Potts' scenes together were some of the most quirkily charming in the film. It was something I'd never seen before--a "Nerd" actually having a woman (albeit clearly another "Nerd") actually giving him the time of day! It got even better when the Real Ghostbusters started--the Peter Venkman/Dana Barrett relationship that dominated the movie was kind of made unusable by the fact that Dana wasn't even in the cartoon, so Janine became female lead by default, and thus Egon the romantic male lead--as the writers did NOT forget about her flirting with him in the movie. They handled it pretty well, especially for a "kids show"--it was realistic for Egon to find it really annoying at first, and he did. But clearly it began to penetrate that she wasn't going to go away, and it wasn't just a passing fancy. I point to "Ragnarok and Roll" as being the Moment that he officially realized he was beginning to like her back. The Ghostbusters thought they were going to die. The rest are trading banter intentionally reminiscant of the end of the movie...then one quick shot to Egon, muttering one word to himself... I think after that it was clear that, in a perfect world, they'd make it work. Of course, it's not a perfect world. Janine gets lobotomized by TV executives. Ramis tries to pair her off with Louis Tully in GB2...oh, that one hurt. It was like finding out your best friend's girlfriend had cheated on him and then discovering that his own father had set it up. But SOMEBODY knew what they were doing. The cartoon vetoed the Louis stuff with stories such as "The Ghostbusters Live From Al Capone's Tomb" (Janine kisses Egon in full sight of Louis), RGB#16 (Janine blows off Louis as "Sweet but harmless") and of course, JMS's final RGB masterpiece, "Janine You've Changed" (It's quite clear it ain't Louis Tully she did that for, he isn't even mentioned. And of course, Egon finally admits out loud that he loves her) And while EGB dropped the ball somewhat (apparently forgetting "Janine You've Changed' happened) they still put them back on track with episodes like "The Crawler" and "Back In the Saddle" Louis, by the way, is never even mentioned in this show. You know how I have it end from there: they finally get married in 1998, have Twins a year later, and live Happily Even After. (As seen in Future Shocks they're alive at least as far as 2023) Even 88MPH studios recognizes the potential and popularity of this relationship. I don't think that in itself played a massive role in deciding to make the new series a "reboot" set after GB1, but certainly relegating GB2 to the realm of a future that Probably Won't Happen makes a lot of us happy, and Andrew Dabb has shown a lot of skill with them so far. Okay, there's the dissenting voice of Ghostbusters: The Return but Sholly Fisch set it after GB2 and is, by his own admission, not familiar with RGB. And even he, intentional or not, played into us Shippers' hands by having Janine decline going to the debate with Louis to stay and help Egon (and Ray) research Xanthador. Basically, I consider this quirky relationship one of the single most interesting things about the property.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 15, 2005 14:00:07 GMT -4
Basically, I consider this quirky relationship one of the single most interesting things about the property. As I mentioned elsewhere, their relationship was really the only thing that has brought me back to RGB. Ya know, I started to watch RGB when I was eleven, and my mother used to watch with me. I was a fan into my early teens, until other things took over and my interest waned somewhat. However, Egon and Janine always intrigued me, and when I admitted to my mother that I’d joined up some of the GB message boards a couple of years ago, the first thing she asked me were about Egon and Janine and whether they ended up together. Unfortunately, I had to tell her that they didn’t. I would have loved to have seen them become a proper couple. I’d have loved to seen an interaction between his family and hers. I’d have loved to have seen Janine try (and possibly fail) to integrate herself into his family. I’d have loved to have seen a marriage. I’d have loved to have seen children, and to see how they as a couple would bring them up. There were so many possibilities, so many avenues to take them both and yet nothing happened. All I can say is thank god for fanfiction/fanart. Officially, I could only reconcile myself with those few E/J moments: The hug in GB1, the ‘Lucky Coin’ Scene, the hug in Ghost Busted, the tackle to the floor wearing a nightshirt in Citizen Ghost, the whisper of a name in Ragnarok and Roll, the despair in Cry Uncle, the comical ‘love wish’ in Janine’s Genie, the slow realisation in Janine, You’ve Changed, the declaration of love and the suggestion of a date in the same episode. Even the zipping up of Spengler’s jumpsuit on Louis in GB2 warmed my heart a little. Just clinging to the little scraps that we were given, and hoping that sometime, someone would just take them both that little step further forward… Some say they were unsuited. I’d like to challenge that. In situations where one person is socially inept, and focussed on science, they would need a partner to bring them back to earth, and to compensate for their lack of social skills. If Egon was paired with a like-minded partner, they’d spend all day in a lab, not eat, not sleep, not socialise… Arguably the best thing to have happened to Egon was Peter. In many ways, Janine’s personality and background can be favourably compared to Venkman’s. They could have been the perfect match. The perfect couple. Where one is too flighty, the other could have grounded them. Where one is too closed, the other could open them up. Egon could teach Janine, could introduce her to opera, to classical music, and literature. Janine could teach Egon how to love, to feel, to socialise, to relax. Their differences could have been their strengths. Some suggest Janine came on too strong. I’d also like to challenge this. I’ve been in a situation where my attraction to someone had been unreciprocated. I know how desperate you become. I know how you look forward to seeing that person, hoping against hope that they will notice your existence. I dressed up for that person. I wore short skirts and make-up to try and attract them and look my best for them. My hugs would last that little too long. With someone as unresponsive as Egon was, I can totally understand Janine’s actions. In fact, Egon’s mixed messages (one minute uninterested, another minute acting in jealousy) could very easily have exacerbated the situation. It certainly would have confused the heck out of me. In many ways, the relationship between Egon and Janine was much more successful than between Peter and Dana. After all, it had continued on into RGB where Peter and Dana hadn’t, and most shipper fanfics concern Egon and Janine rather than Peter and Dana. It has always surprised me that what seems such a potentially entertaining and intriguing couple had been neglected by The Powers That Be. The storyline potential for them both with regard to differing backgrounds and personality could have lasted for years if it had been taken just that little bit further. I think it’s a huge shame that it didn’t. I’m dying to see a proper, reciprocated kiss between them both, which is something I’ve been waiting for many years to see. Ya see, I’m just an old romantic at heart.
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Post by Fritz on Apr 15, 2005 17:47:16 GMT -4
Well said. The argument some of the Haters bring out ("He should be with someone as smart as he is"...(which is usually followed by "...Like this character based on me that I created...")) well, number one, there aren't many people as smart as Egon is, and, two, as you so well put it... This is what a lot of them forget about. Look at the guys he's chosen to be his friends, both Venkman and Ray Stantz. Ray may be closer to Egon in intelligence than Venkman is, but that isn't the point--the point is that both of them are emotionally driven. Again, Ray is smart, but it's how he feels about a situation instead what logic tells him that drives him most of the time. Winston is the only other character who is, like Egon, primarily guided by his reason instead of his emotion, and quite frankly of the combinations of the five characters (the four Ghostbusters and Janine) Egon and Winston's is by far the most distant relationship. Or let's consider the one case of a woman whom They might consider closer to "right"--"Collect Call of Cthulu";s Dr. Alice Derleth. Brilliant occult scholar, academic background, pretty easy on the eyes...Egon doesn't raise an eyebrow. Venkman is drooling all over himself, but this "perfect" woman doesn't get reaction out of Egon. A fiesty, emotional woman--who at the same time understands that what he does is important (and that what he deals with is real) and exibits the patience to keep chinking away at that emotional armor he throws up--is exactly what he needs and, deep down, where he doesn't even realize it, what he looks for. You don't need to create that "perfect" woman for him--it's already been done...
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 16, 2005 12:21:38 GMT -4
The argument some of the Haters bring out ("He should be with someone as smart as he is"...(which is usually followed by "...Like this character based on me that I created...")) I must admit that it’s fairly obvious that most of those who so dislike the possibility of a romance between Egon and Janine do seem to have their own agendas to promote, despite the various pieces of evidence in GB1, RGB and EGB that suggest otherwise. They demonise Janine for their own ends. They like to pretend that she only wants a physical relationship with Egon, or that she’s a woman bent on control when I’ve never, ever seen Janine act in any way that would imply this in either RGB, EGB, GB1 or 2. How can someone honestly be depicted as a ‘slut’ in a cartoon, for goodness sakes?! A fiesty, emotional woman--who at the same time understands that what he does is important (and that what he deals with is real) and exibits the patience to keep chinking away at that emotional armor he throws up--is exactly what he needs and, deep down, where he doesn't even realize it, what he looks for. You don't need to create that "perfect" woman for him--it's already been done... Exactly. Some who have suggested that Egon might have a form of autism seem to assume that he needs to be with someone who has the same, or a similar condition. They assume that others who do not have such a condition can’t be patient enough, or tolerant enough to cope. I completely disagree. I feel that someone who cares enough about them (and Janine has demonstrated many times that she deeply cares about Egon) would be understanding and patient enough to assist them in their daily lives. Egon’s friends obviously don’t have such a condition, so why should his girlfriend need to have it in order for him to have a successful relationship with her? If Egon can socialise and get along perfectly well with Peter, Winston and Ray, then I assume that he could probably date Janine without any problems. I think there’s no doubt that Egon cares about Janine. He worries about her when she’s in danger. He’s the first to be there to find her to make sure she’s okay. He gets jealous of her boyfriend. He even mentioned her name when he thought he was about to die! In Janine, You’ve Changed, he even admitted that he cared about her, and that he loved her, and at the end of the episode he actually asked her out on a proper date. Janine has shown over and over how much she loves him. That’s all the evidence anyone can ever need to know how they feel about each other.
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Post by Miss Janine on Apr 16, 2005 14:34:05 GMT -4
I've always seen Egon and Janine as more alike than different. True, she doesn't approach his genius level intelligence, but she's pretty sharp herself. I agree fully about EGB "dropping the ball", but since it was a "cartoon", I guess there was only so much they could do. As waqs said earlier, thank God for fanfiction. At least there we can see a very deserving couple live happily ever after. Funny, but even when I first saw the first film back in "84, I knew they were right for each other. RGB just solidified that feeling. Any wonder why "Janine, You've Changed" is one of my favorite episodes?
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 16, 2005 16:53:07 GMT -4
I agree fully about EGB "dropping the ball", but since it was a "cartoon", I guess there was only so much they could do. Well, I’m not too sure about that. I don’t think it would have been too problematic to have Egon and Janine married and with kids in EGB, or even in RGB. I don’t think it would have been too much of an adult situation, or would have detracted too much from the storylines. In fact, I imagine if their kids were anything like Fritz’s creations of Eden and Jonathan, it would have been quite funny to see them destroying things and generally helping to add to the chaos of the firehouse around them. It might also have added a little bit of extra tension if not only had Janine been threatened by a ghost or demon, but their kids had too. In fact, seeing a happily married couple with kids in a cartoon series might actually have impressed the parents out there who would have had problems with some of the depictions in RGB. Any wonder why "Janine, You've Changed" is one of my favorite episodes? It’s one of my favourites, too.
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raysgal
Extreme Ghostbuster
Ooohhh...
Posts: 58
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Post by raysgal on Apr 16, 2005 18:20:34 GMT -4
This is my most favorite relationship. It was right from the beginning and should have stayed that way through everything. Not become some kind of sham like in parts of the cartoon and in GB 2 though I did think it was funny to see Louis act the way he did in the second movie. (Well, that's more because I enjoy Rick Moranis and his reactions are priceless.) But anyway, this was a wonderful relationship. You've got the clueless guy that's not very good with women to begin with and the assertive woman who knows exactly what she wants. I wish there had been a bit more in the first film that touched upon their relationship, but I guess that got in the way of all the comedy. Though in the second film that's where it went all downhill with almost everything. The cartoons though had some brilliant moments that I wished would have kept up more throughout the seasons as well being resurrected in EGB instead of it once again being so awkward between the two. I'm glad that in the comics there is a possibility that this romance will be brought back because I bet it'll be a lot of fun in this arena. I guess my bottom line...Go Egon and Janine!!!
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Post by Fritz on Apr 17, 2005 17:19:18 GMT -4
I can understand why their relationship was underutilized in RGB--it became aimed more and more at kids, and let's face it: the average eight year old boy still thinks girls are "icky" and doesn't want to be bothered with that stuff.
And yeah, I know some people subscribe to the old "but if the couple gets together it kills it" idea--but that's basically in shows where the tension is pretty much the whole point of the thing.
On the other hand, having them start EGB together wouldn't have hurt the show much at all, and in fact some people (like, y'know, us...) would've liked it more (or in some cases, might not have hated it) They weren't the focus of EGB the way they (especially Egon) were in RGB--only about one or two episodes of the forty would've had to have been rewritten or scrapped entirely. The fans would've been pleased and you'd still have the "Will They Won't They" tensions with Eduardo and Kylie.
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Post by Kingpin on Apr 18, 2005 5:52:08 GMT -4
One person (We know who she is) used the excuse that love has no place in something like Ghostbusters. That couldn't be more wrong...love can inspire great things, what could have happened in an episode (If the metaphorical marriage or date had happened some time ago) and say, something happened to Janine, how would Egon react? How could the Ghostbusters operate when their greatest mind can't keep himself emotionally controlled. Additionally, it'd make the ability to do something to ensure that loved one's safety even more great, if there's the risk of loosing that person you love. It would seem, that the most vocal opponents to the union of Janine and Egon are the ones with an alterior motive, first Clara Hamilton, she has a black belt...appears to have intellect...and seems to 'get' Egon...like was mentioned, how many people have Egon Spengler's level of Intellect, and happen to live in New York? Then there's the demonisation of Janine, the sole female role in the cartoon, and a strong, positive one. It's rediculous, Janine was pretty smart when you looked past the Netherlands bit...and she kicked ghost ass on more then one occassion. But then, they've always ignored established fact for their goals It was in the movie, it happened. get over it. Maybe, but there's also the chance, he actually meant it. The Janine haters will always try to find a way to show that she isn't good enough, and that their character is better...but a lot of those characters are Mary Sues (Who seem to end up in his pants eventually) and they also ignore the core fact that has perveyed in every version or rendition of the series. Ghostbusters MovieEgon and Janine show the beginnings of a relationship. The Real GhostbustersEgon actually realises he loves Janine, and eventually admits it. Now's GhostbustersShe acknowledges that Louis was a possibility, but is 'mostly harmless'. Marvel's Ghostbusters (Though I consider these apochryphical) Egon and Janine go out on various dates and get each other various gifts. Ghostbusters IIEgon and Janine are in a rough spot, not even in the same scene together, but she still zips up Louis in one of the Egon's jumpsuits. Extreme GhostbustersWhile stalled, they start going out again, as well as Egon showing that he isn't as fickle as he appears. 88MPH's GhostbustersEgon and Janine will be going out on a date. Now I don't see how they could be anything else, if almost all of those show that there's a relationship between Egon and Janine which might lead to more then friendship... phew...Now, I rest my fingers.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 18, 2005 10:18:29 GMT -4
I can understand why their relationship was underutilized in RGB--it became aimed more and more at kids, and let's face it: the average eight year old boy still thinks girls are "icky" and doesn't want to be bothered with that stuff. Well, I think there’s a lot that could have been indirectly alluded to in RGB with regard to a possible relationship between Egon and Janine. I think there could have been a couple of times where Egon referred to Janine as his ‘girlfriend’ (especially after Janine, You’ve Changed), and I’d have loved to have seen at least one episode in RGB where Egon and Janine would have to work alone together, to save Ray, Winston and Peter. I’ve heard that Egon and Janine made a great team in one of the NOW comics, so I’m sure they could have done so in an episode of the cartoon. It also would have been interesting for Egon’s Uncle not only to have been unimpressed by his choice of vocation, but also his choice of girlfriend in Cry Uncle. A minor re-write was all it could have took, and it wouldn’t have detracted from that episode. I agree that the whole romance thing would never take priority in a cartoon aimed mainly at kids, but I think they could definitely have done more in a subtle manner, without putting off the young kids who are only interested in the cool cars, the equipment and the busting action. And yeah, I know some people subscribe to the old "but if the couple gets together it kills it" idea--but that's basically in shows where the tension is pretty much the whole point of the thing. I think that the will-they/won’t-they tension is great at first, but then it just gets to the point when you want it to happen already. It gets kind of frustrating when it goes on and on without some kind of culmination. Inevitably, in shows where the will-they/won’t-they situation occurs, the characters involved finally end up together, anyway. I totally agree with you about EGB. I don’t think having Egon and Janine married and with kids would have adversely affected the show at all. Maybe, but there's also the chance, he actually meant it. You know, that’s the one that really makes me laugh. In the RGB episode Janine, You’ve Changed, Egon states, and I quote: “I guess you never know how much someone means to you until you might lose them.” This is said to Peter in the car on the way to try and find Janine. It’s not even spoken to Janine, although it’s obviously a reference to her. There’s no-one else that he might lose in that episode. He also says to Janine: “I love you. Peter, Winston, Ray, we love you.” Possibly to snap her out of it, but most likely as an opportunity to let her know that he cares about her more than he ever thought he did. It follows the previous quote about realising your true feelings for someone when they are in danger. He realised how he felt about Janine, and told her. Of course, that admission for him is quite a big thing, and has been a long time coming, so in order to give it slightly less of an emotional impact (for himself as much as for her), he adds the others as an afterthought. Notice the pause after he tells her he loves her. If he truly meant it as a collective emotion, then he simply could have said ‘We love you, Janine. All of us.’ Why single himself out like that unless he meant it? Finally, and this is the thing that is most often forgotten by these fan-girls; after everything is over and there is no need to snap her out of anything, with no ulterior motive or prompting from her at all, he actually asks her out on a date!!!! First, he asks if she’s cold, and puts an arm around her. Then he asks her out: “So, would you maybe, eh, like to go see a movie sometime? I mean, with me?” After suggesting some films they could watch, he then says: “This could be fun.”<br> I’m not sure how you can interpret that episode differently, but somehow they manage it. Maybe they turned the episode off before the end, or their tape ran out, or something. I just find that quite funny.
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Post by Fritz on Apr 18, 2005 10:44:29 GMT -4
One person (We know who she is) used the excuse that love has no place in something like Ghostbusters. We all know that's a transparently self-serving excuse. She has yet to register one objection to Venkman and Dana's romance. But please, just a word: let's not turn this into the "Let's Bash You-Know-Who" thread. I know we all have a lot of frustration worked up, as she terrorizes every other board when the subject comes up, but don't go overboard. I don't think anybody is yet,. but I felt it should be said.
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Post by EGBFan on Apr 18, 2005 10:52:28 GMT -4
Here it is...the King of all Topics That We Can't Talk About On Any Other GB Board... Ok, here's a really stupid question: why can't we?
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Post by Fritz on Apr 18, 2005 11:05:35 GMT -4
There's no rules anywhere against it...it's just become something we avoid talking about much because, as I said, Somebody Who Shall Remain Nameless likes to turn any E/J discussion into a flame war. Since this is the one board she doesn't belong to, we're free to talk about it as much as we want.
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Post by Silent Seraphim on Apr 18, 2005 13:26:22 GMT -4
But please, just a word: let's not turn this into the "Let's Bash You-Know-Who" thread. I know we all have a lot of frustration worked up, as she terrorizes every other board when the subject comes up, but don't go overboard. I don't think anybody is yet,. but I felt it should be said. I was trying to be quite general, because although we are all aware that there is one particular person who is extremely vocal about this type of discussion, there are some others out there who also feel the same way.
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Post by Kingpin on Apr 18, 2005 19:17:57 GMT -4
Oh. No, he meant me...I have being going a little overboard in relation to Sauron...erm, I mean...she who shall remain nameless.
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